Larry King Live

The Death of Matthew Shepard: Examining Anti-Gay Violence in America

Aired October 16, 1998 - 9:00 p.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, GUEST HOST: Tonight, a sad farewell to Matthew Shepard. As he's buried in Wyoming, his murder continues to spark outrage and debate across the country. We'll talk to two of Matthew Shepard's closest friends and examine the issue of anti-gay violence.

Our guests: in Lynchburg, Virginia, Reverend Jerry Falwell, chancellor of Liberty University; in Louisville, Kentucky, Reverend Albert Mohler, Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; here in Washington, Andrew Sullivan, writer for "The New York Times" magazine, senior editor at "The New Republic," and author of the book, "Love Undetectable"; and Elizabeth Birch, executive director of the group Human Rights Campaign.

They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer filling in for Larry King. Larry will return next week.

Tonight, we'll look at the horrible crime in Wyoming that has had a ripple effect all across the country. Twenty-one-year-old Matthew Shepard died Monday five days after being pistol-whipped and left for dead in near-freezing temperatures. Two young men face first-degree murder and other charges in the attack. Authorities in Laramie, Wyoming, still say robbery was the main motive but that Shepard may have been targeted because he was gay.

We'll examine that issue of anti-gay violence and potential hate- crime legislation in a moment, but, first, let's go to Casper, Wyoming, where a memorial service was held today for Matthew Shepard. Joining us are two of his closest friends, Walter Boulden and Alex Trout.

Gentlemen, thanks for joining us on LARRY KING LIVE. And our condolences, of course, to you and Matthew Shepard's family.

WALTER BOULDEN, FRIEND OF MATTHEW SHEPARD: Thank you very much.

ALEX TROUT, FRIEND OF MATTHEW SHEPARD: Thank you.

BLITZER: Walter Boulden, tell us what, in your opinion, was the motive. What happened to Matthew Shepard?

BOULDEN: Well, the way I understand -- Matt made the mistake of basically just telling these guys that he was gay, and for Matt, that would have been -- I hear a lot that -- people say that Matt was openly gay, and Matt wasn't openly gay by, I would say, East Coast standards by any means. He had to feel incredibly safe around somebody to let them know he was gay, and the way I understand it is he -- in the course of a conversation with these two gentlemen, he revealed that he was gay, and then they told him that they were also gay, and that's how they got him to go with them.

BLITZER: When was the last time you spoke to Matthew Shepard?

BOULDEN: About 6:30 that same night. He called me. We were supposed to be going to a movie together. He called me and let me know that he had to study for some -- a French class and that he wasn't going to be able to make it to the movie.

BLITZER: And then you, of course, heard about the incident shortly thereafter.

BOULDEN: Well, it was actually the next day that -- because that was on Tuesday, and it wasn't until Wednesday that they found him.

BLITZER: Alex, tell us about Matthew Shepard. What kind of man was he?

TROUT: Matt was a very nice, gentle, kind, loving person and just out to do anything for anybody, would be willing to help anybody. Anything...

BLITZER: Did...

TROUT: Go ahead.

BLITZER: No. I was wondering if there is in Wyoming, whether in Laramie or in Casper, any history of targeting gays for this kind of violence.

TROUT: Wyoming is a live-let-live state. It's more of, you know, you leave me alone, I'll leave you alone. You know, it's -- as Walt has said before, it's the epitome of don't-ask-don't-tell.

BLITZER: Let's go back to Walter for a second. Walter, if you take a look at this incident, how do you think the law-enforcement authorities in Wyoming are handling this?

BOULDEN: Oh, I have to give commendations to the Laramie Police Department, the Albany County Sheriff's Department, and the county attorney. They have been unbelievably compassionate in the way that they've handled that. They kept in touch with not only Alex and I but the community in general -- but the gay community specifically, to make sure that we were not feeling more vulnerable than we needed to be feeling. I can't speak highly enough of them. They were on as little sleep as we were, they were shaken by this, and yet they were constantly making sure that we were OK.

BLITZER: Alex, when Walter says that Matthew Shepard was not necessarily openly gay by East Coast standards, tell us about him. How openly gay was Matthew Shepard?

TROUT: Matt was open in the sense that, if he felt comfortable with you, he would tell you. If he didn't feel comfortable with you, then you would never have known that he was gay, but, at the same time, I think that Matt was -- I don't know -- just in his own personality was very feminine. So even if he was straight, he would have had the problem of being called names or the same thing that happened here.

BLITZER: Because -- in Wyoming, how difficult is it for someone who is openly gay to go about his or her daily life?

TROUT: It's not difficult at all as long as you live your life and are respected in -- as -- you know, the community. I've lived in Laramie for almost four years now and never had a problem.

BLITZER: What about you, Walter? Could you say that's the same as far as you're concerned?

BOULDEN: Very much so. I mean, I was born and raised in Wyoming. I've lived here my whole life. I'm 46 years old. Wyoming has got an attitude that if they -- if people know you as an individual, if they know you as a good neighbor, if they know you as somebody who's involved in the community and they find out that you're gay, it's kind of a non-issue. They won't ask you about it, but, at the same time, it's an atmosphere where you would not walk down the street holding hands.

If you went out to dinner, you wouldn't show any kind of affection if you were with your partner. So it's kind of like if you don't push the envelope too much -- it also helps if you don't look gay, if -- I think the people that have the most problems are those that have too feminine of features or -- or if you're not seen as insider, if you're not seen as somebody who belongs in Wyoming, then it's one more thing that would make you foreign and might make somebody -- you know, might make people reject you.

BLITZER: Do you think it was a simple robbery case, Walter, or do you think...

BOULDEN: No.

BLITZER: ... it was anti-gay targeting?

BOULDEN: If you're going to rob somebody, you go knock them in the head, take their money, and dump them somewhere. These people didn't in -- attempt at all to -- first of all, to hide the crime. They took him out, and they tortured him and hung him to that fence, and they hung him to that fence as a very clear message for the rest of us that this isn't a place that you're supposed to be if you're gay. It -- I mean, they displayed him like some kind of a trophy. You don't do that to a robbery victim.

BLITZER: Alex, how is the family of Matthew Shepard? I know that we saw the parents earlier today. How are they coping right now? TROUT: I think it's been rough for them, but, again, I don't know the family that well. I met his mom once. So for me to say exactly how they're dealing with it -- I think it's very rough for them.

BLITZER: All right. I'm sure it's been rough for all of you and everyone in Wyoming, everyone around the country. I want to thank both of you, especially the two of you who knew Matthew Shepard quite well, for joining us.

We're going to now take a commercial break. When we continue, we're going to continue this discussion with our four panelists. A lot more on LARRY KING LIVE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DENNIS SHEPARD, MATTHEW SHEPARD'S FATHER: On behalf of our son, Matthew Shepard, we want to thank the citizens of the United States and the people of the world who have expressed their deepest sympathy and condolences to our family during these trying times. A person as caring and loving as our son, Matt, would be overwhelmed by what this incident has done to the hearts and souls of people around the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

We're discussing the murder of a gay student, Matthew Shepard, in Wyoming, and the issue of anti-gay violence. We want to welcome our panel of guests: in Lynchburg, Virginia, Reverend Jerry Falwell, chancellor of Liberty University; in Louisville, Kentucky, Reverend Albert Mohler, Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; here in Washington, Andrew Sullivan, writer for "The New York Times" magazine, senior editor at "The New Republic," and author of the book, "Love Undetectable"; and Elizabeth Birch, executive director of the group Human Rights Campaign.

Martina Navratilova was supposed to be on this program this evening. Unfortunately, she's not feeling well. I spoke with her earlier this evening. She wants to get healthy to play tennis tomorrow in Houston. We hope to have her on a different occasion.

Andrew Sullivan, let's start with you. You wrote a strong article in "The New York Times" magazine last Sunday, and -- well, let me ask you do you think the atmosphere for this kind of murder was created by some of the things perhaps some of our other guests, the Reverend Jerry Falwell and the Reverend Albert Mohler, have said or done, their groups, Christian conservatives, over the past few years?

ANDREW SULLIVAN, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE: I don't think it's fair to say that because someone says something and someone else does something that they're directly responsible. I think that's a cheap shot really. I'm sure that our two fellow guests here did not want this to happen, would not want this to happen, and could not bring themselves to support it.

All I hope is that they see that -- finally that gay people are human beings, real people living in small towns who wish no one any harm and just want to be treated with dignity and respect and, unfortunately, in some of the rhetoric that's used -- I mean, for example, I was watching CNN and saw Jerry Falwell on the Ellen episode -- talking about that particular phenomenon, and when asked whether he'd seen it, he didn't say, "No, I haven't seen it." He said, "You know, I don't have to look under a sewer to know what's there."

BLITZER: Reverend...

SULLIVAN: Now when you talk about gay people as if they belong in a sewer, I think you're using rhetoric that, unfortunately, encourages crazies to do what they do.

BLITZER: Reverend Falwell, what do you say about that?

REV. JERRY FALWELL, LIBERTY UNIVERSITY: Well, I certainly understand where Andrew's coming from and, of course, I've heard this many, many times before, but a minister of the gospel has a dilemma, and it's not unmanageable. For example, first of all, believing the Bible to be the inspired, infallible Word of God and that Bible teaches that all sex outside of marriage, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual, is forbidden, we have no choice but to preach the whole counsel of God.

Secondly, as a minister for more than 42 years, pastor of the same church, a 22,000-member church, it has been my privilege and joy to lead many gays and lesbians to the saving knowledge of Christ through His death, burial, resurrection, and see them literally transformed from that lifestyle and brought to normalcy, to heterosexual marriage, parenting children, et cetera, and many out there as pastors -- other ministers, of course, are doing the same thing.

So what I'm saying is I do not believe as a Christian that one's lifestyle is genetically transferred. I believe that our lifestyles are a matter of choice. Of course, we're all born as sinners, and that's why Christ had to die on the cross for us, but we choose the way we're going to live, and if we're going to say that a person is an adulterer because his father and uncle and grandfather were, it's a cop-out. Now...

BLITZER: Let's let...

FALWELL: ... strident language is the problem I think you're talking about, and I don't know how we can preach the Bible without doing it the way Jesus did, hating sin but loving the sinner, and I can tell you that I personally deal with and minister to gays and lesbians on a regular basis. They have no problem knowing I love them while I tell them what they're doing is wrong.

BLITZER: All right. Let's let Elizabeth Birch join in this con -- what do you say to the argument that Reverend Jerry Falwell is a theologian and he is strictly going by what the Bible says about homosexuality?

ELIZABETH BIRCH, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: I think some of these messengers are wolves dressed in Christian cloaks. In fact, these hate crimes -- what -- the savage and brutal murder of someone like a gentle, sweet, young man like Matthew Shepard -- do not happen in a vacuum. They happen because messages are pumped out into the country. And I agree with Andrew, I do not believe there's direct causation, but I think when you over and over again present gay and lesbian Americans as defective, as less than human, as imperfect -- you know, everyone...

SULLIVAN: As diseased.

BIRCH: Everyone is a sinner. Reverend Falwell is a sinner. He had a very unruly teenagehood. The fact is that those messages miss the central message of the scripture, and the central message of the scripture is about love, and it's about unity and not about division and divisive messages. Reverend Falwell, I think, is very misguided, but, more than that, these other extreme right-wing organizations that have run these ads all summer long -- we didn't know who Matthew would be, but we knew some innocent person would get slaughtered this summer.

BLITZER: All right. Reverend Mohler, we're going to come to you right when we come back from our next commercial break. We have to take a break right now. A lot more to discuss about this very, very important subject when we return on LARRY KING LIVE.
 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELLEN DEGENERES, ACTRESS: I can't stop crying. You know, I just -- I think -- I mean, I know we all feel the same way, and I'm here, and I'm -- you know, he's got his two close friends here, and I'm -- I don't even know him, and I'm thinking this is just really selfish of me. I mean, what -- pull yourself together, and -- and then it just hit me why I am so devastated by it. It's because this is what I was trying to stop. This is exactly why I did what I did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Reverend Mohler, is homosexuality a disease that could be cured?

REV. R. ALBERT MOHLER, JR., SOUTHERN BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY: Well, in the sense that it, like so many other sins, can be described as a disease, but I reject the disease notion behind the question. The Bible speaks of sin in terms of behavior, not in terms of a disease that can be characterized as the way you -- the modern world tries to write off most sinful activity as a disease of one sort of or another. That becomes the disease excuse. We are horrified by the news of Matthew Shepard's death. It was a brutal, senseless murder. Our hearts go out to his parents and to his family. Their grief must be just enormous and unspeakable, but it is also tragic that his death has been turned into an opportunity seized by others for a political agenda.

BLITZER: All right. Andrew Sullivan, what do you say about that?

SULLIVAN: I don't think we're seizing anything. I think we're hit in the solar plexus by what they did to Matthew. I think we identify with him. We see a poor boy who had enormous moral courage. I want to challenge this idea that behavior if you are gay is wrong. Love is never wrong. Many of us who are gay are also Christians, believing Catholics, people part of God's church, and we refuse to be described as if somehow our love for one another -- our love is somehow wrong or evil or diseased. The very premise is wrong, and I want to challenge Reverend Falwell. Do you now regret, Reverend Falwell, that you used the term "sewer" to describe gay people. Isn't that a hate word?

FALWELL: That is not what I said. If you will let me tell you exactly what I said, and the tape will show it, I -- someone asked me if I watched the -- "Ellen" and other programs and so forth. I watch very little television because, like many on this program, I'm doing it all the time. But the fact is I said that -- and I was also asked, "Do you know about pornography? What do you know about it?" and my answer was you don't have to take the cap off a sewer to know it stinks, and likewise I don't have to spend my time watching television to be advised on the rightness or wrongness of promoting lifestyles. I want to say...

SULLIVAN: But do you really think...

FALWELL: I want to say with Al Mohler -- I want to say with Al Mohler that those people outside the church in Wyoming who were holding up these vile placards and shouting terrible words and "God hates fags" and all that kind -- that is not Christian. That is not representative of anything really Christian that I know anything about. My ministry -- I listened to that father very carefully. He said, "I hope this will not be used as an agenda for hate-crime legislation or anything rather than a terrible crime committed by two young men, maybe others, and that it will be dealt with in that way."

When you consider how many blacks likewise and Hispanics and persons -- I can go to other parts of the world where Christians in Sudan and so forth are persecuted -- persecution's a terrible thing no matter what form it takes, but the fact is that most people in America -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever -- abhor -- literally abhor what happened in Wyoming, and our prayers go out for the Shepard family.

BLITZER: All right. Elizabeth.

BIRCH: Reverend -- Reverend Falwell and Reverend Mohler, I think it is so desperately inappropriate to equate the kind of grief and mourning and the candlelight vigils that have gone on all over this country in memory of this young man as...

FALWELL: Absolutely. BIRCH: ... somehow furthering a political agenda, and the hypocrisy is stunning in that you are among the people who have advocated to have laws cover people who are persecuted on the basis of religion. I know Reverend Falwell himself worked to have such protections in place for Christians abroad. So...

FALWELL: I didn't hear that.

BIRCH: ... all that we're saying is, in fact, that there is an entire population in this country -- and the United States Congress in its wisdom in 1998 passed the Hate Crimes Statistics Act to find out are gay and lesbian Americans singled out for savage and brutal hate crimes. They have determined, yes, that has happened, and the Justice Department has asked for authority to be able to intervene not in cases like Matthew Shepard's where the local authorities were smart, moved in, knew how to do the kind of investigation that is necessary in a murder case, and took care of things, but there are enumerable times when local authorities are unwilling or unable to do that.

BLITZER: All right. Reverend...

FALWELL: Elizabeth, I totally agree with you on most of what you said. I am certainly opposed -- I'm not opposed to the government getting involved in these matters. The only thing I would fear is that we do not use this to promote same-sex marriage and legislation that provides financial benefits for partners in same-sex relationships.

BIRCH: Why not?

BLITZER: All right. Let...

BIRCH: Why?

FALWELL: Because I believe it is wrong.

BIRCH: Why?

BLITZER: Let me just -- let me...

BIRCH: Talk about using this...

BLITZER: Let me just inter -- wait a second. Let's -- let me just interrupt. We have to take a quick commercial break, but we're going to continue this discussion whether or not there should be new legislation -- hate-crime legislation that protects gays and lesbians in the United States. Stay with us on LARRY KING LIVE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BARNEY FRANK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Earlier this week, a very decent young man was brutally murdered by two savages, and I am particular struck, Mr. Speaker, because given the reasons that those two deformed individuals -- mentally and morally deformed -- murdered that individual, it could have been me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

Reverend Mohler, current hate-crime legislation covers crimes that are motivated by race, color, religion, or national origin. The legislation that President Clinton wants passed by Congress, has not yet been passed, would add to that hate crimes that are motivated by gender, disability, and sexual orientation. What do you think about expanding this kind of hate-crimes legislation?

MOHLER: Well, I think most Americans are actually uncomfortable with the very idea of hate crimes. What you're doing is singling out some persons who are more deserving of protection than others. You're privileging certain forms of speech. It really comes down to a form of thought control. You're psychologizing crimes, and as a matter of fact, had any of the prevailing hate-crimes legislation been in effect in Wyoming, it would have no bearing whatsoever on the tragic murder of Matthew Shepard. There are criminal laws gladly on the books that should be applied in this case. You have two suspects who have been arrested and will face the death penalty if convicted for this crime.

You know, one of my concerns in this is that Elizabeth and Andrew want to have it both ways. They want to say that they are not attempting to capitalize on this very sad event, and then they turn around and do the very same thing.

SULLIVAN: Reverend Mohler...

BIRCH: That's not true. I...

SULLIVAN: Reverend Mohler, do you...

BIRCH: I think that's inappropriate.

SULLIVAN: On those grounds, do you agree -- do you think you should abolish the hate-crimes laws on the basis of race? You're in favor of actually ending those hate-crimes laws? Why do you have -- why are you in favor of some hate-crimes laws for some categories and not others? It seems there's a principle position saying, "No hate- crime laws at all for anybody," and then there's a principle position saying, "Hate-crimes laws for everybody," but your position is the only one that is inconsistent. You want to single out a few groups for having no protection at all.

MOHLER: Actually, you put words in my mouth. I said no such thing. I think the very idea of hate crimes is very legally awkward and constitutionally...

SULLIVAN: So you'd get rid of it for race?

BLITZER: Let him answer.

MOHLER: Well, no, not necessarily. I would say this. We have to make distinction. If any distinction is to be made -- if hate crimes are to be legislated in this sense, we have to make a distinction between behavior that is based upon ethnic and racial identity and that is based upon activity, and homosexuality...

SULLIVAN: But what about religion?

(CROSSTALK)

MOHLER: ... homosexual activity.

BIRCH: OK. Then you would remove religion in that sense, and it sounded like Reverend Falwell would actually protect -- would support the hate-crimes prevention act that would cover sexual orientation. That's what I heard earlier, but you cannot -- you cannot single out and be intellectually consistent and say, in fact, certain categories are covered and others are not. It doesn't make any sense.

MOHLER: Well, I certainly can because homosexuality is an activity.

BIRCH: So is religion.

SULLIVAN: No, it's not.

MOHLER: It's a chosen activity.

BIRCH: So is religion.

MOHLER: Well, we have the First Amendment...

BIRCH: How do you answer for religion?

MOHLER: The founders of this nation made very certain that religious activity, religious freedom was covered in the First Amendment.

BIRCH: It's a behavior.

MOHLER: That is our protection.

SULLIVAN: Let me just challenge you on this. Homosexuality is not a behavior. It is something we are. It is a deep and integral part of our personality. It is a deep and integral part of our souls. Do you believe, Reverend Mohler, along with the Catholic bishops in this country, for example, that a homosexual child is a gift from God? They did a wonderful, wonderful letter recently...

MOHLER: I don't believe there is any such thing.

SULLIVAN: ... saying that gay people are made in the image of God and our parents should cherish us as such. Do you agree with the Catholic Church on this?

MOHLER: I believe that all human beings are made in the image of God. The Bible is very clear on that, but I do not believe that anyone is born a homosexual, much less that one can look at a child and say that it is homosexual. I think that is an abhorrent notion and, quite frankly, the Bible...

SULLIVAN: It happens to be...

MOHLER: The Bible is very clear on this, and -- both of you have cited scripture, but the message of the Bible is about redemption from sin. The word "sin" is very critical to the whole Biblical world view, and it specifically identifies homosexuality, homosexual behavior as sinful. That is not my idea. It's not...

SULLIVAN: Pope John Paul II...

MOHLER: ... Dr. Falwell's idea. That is purely...

SULLIVAN: But the current pope...

MOHLER: ... revealed in scripture.

SULLIVAN: The current pope and the Roman Catholic Church have said that homosexuality in some cases is innate, meaning you're born with it. I just want to clarify that you do not speak for all Christians. You do not speak for the Catholic Church who takes a very strong position that homosexuality is not a choice, that we have to respect gay people...

FALWELL: Andrew...

SULLIVAN: ... we have to respect them within the church.

BLITZER: All right. Let's -- let's let Reverend Falwell enter this discussion. Go ahead, Reverend Falwell.

FALWELL: Andrew, you're right. You're right. No one speaks for everyone, that is correct, but as an evangelical Christian who believes in the verbal inspiration of scripture, the Bible is very, very clear on the fact that we choose our lifestyle, we choose our behavior and conduct. A man who may be an immoral person, heterosexually promiscuous, chooses to be that, and he may go through a dozen marriages and say, "My father taught this to me," but that won't wash with God, and he's partially responsible. I believe that the gay lifestyle, like promiscuous heterosexuality, is sex outside of the marriage bond between a man and a woman which is the...

SULLIVAN: Did you choose heterosexuality?

FALWELL: ... only union ordained by God.

BLITZER: All right. We have to take another commercial break, but we're going to continue this discussion on LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: The crime against Matthew Shepard has shocked the conscious of the country, and a powerful response is clearly required. Hate crimes are on the rise. Hate crimes are on the rise, and we need to send the strongest possible signal as a nation that these crimes will not be tolerated in the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Wolf Blitzer sitting in for Larry King. Larry will return on Monday.

Tonight, we're discussing the issue of anti-gay violence, pegged to the murder of gay student Matthew Shepard in Wyoming.

Our guests: in Lynchburg, Virginia, Reverend Jerry Falwell, chancellor of Liberty University; in Louisville, Kentucky, Reverend Albert Mohler, Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; here in Washington, Andrew Sullivan, writer for "The New York Times" magazine and author of the book, "Love Undetectable"; and Elizabeth Birch, executive director of the group Human Rights Campaign.

We were talking about the whole issue of whether or not someone can determine -- can decide that he or she is a gay person. Did you make that choice, or was that choice made for you, Andrew Sullivan?

SULLIVAN: I was brought up in a very traditional Catholic family. All the incentives were for me to be straight. It's been a big difficulty in many ways being gay. I wouldn't choose this. I love it, but, of course, I didn't choose it, and every gay person you talk to will tell you that. Why would we lie? Why are we being accused of lying? We're telling the truth.

You know, there is no commandment that says "Thou shalt not be gay," but there is a commandment that says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness." I will not bear false witness about what this is. I am gay. I knew that from the minute I was conscious of myself. I am proud of it. I believe God made me so, and I think that's a very important message to tell kids out there in America. These people who tell you you're diseased and wrong and evil -- they're not right. You are made in the image of God, and you must be cherished as such.

BLITZER: All right. Well...

BIRCH: Wolf, can I just chime in here? I mean, my experience is that from the time I was conscious, from the first moment I could think, I knew I was different. I did feel like a strength within me. I felt absolutely clear from a very early age that I was a lesbian, but I felt whole. I felt that it was a fascinating, wonderful, amazing variation on the species. I would have chosen this life. That's how I'm different from Andrew. I think we're given special gifts and that we can learn special lessons from being gay or lesbian, but it feels absolutely inherent down to my soul...

BLITZER: All right. Reverend Falwell, go ahead.

BIRCH: ... and I think...

FALWELL: Wolf... BIRCH: ... and I think Reverend...

FALWELL: Wolf, I would -- this is where the great divide is, of course. There's an obvious disagreement. As an evangelical Christian, I believe that both Elizabeth and Andrew, if they would -- if they wished to change, could trust the saving gospel of Christ through His death, burial, resurrection, be transformed and be totally changed, and I want to say further...

BIRCH: And I feel the same...

FALWELL: ... and I want to add this, that if -- if my sons or grandsons came to me and said, "Dad, Poppy, I'm gay," I'd wrap my arms around them. I'd love them. I'd pray for them. I'd minister to them. I would lovingly stick with them all the way and do everything I could to help them out of the lifestyle, but I would never reject them.

SULLIVAN: As a matter of fact...

BIRCH: And, Wolf, can I just...

SULLIVAN: ... you've written a...

BLITZER: Let's let Andrew Sullivan respond and then Reverend Mohler.

SULLIVAN: You might say that to them, but you've written a mailing that says you want a declaration of war against homosexuals. You've called us...

FALWELL: No such thing.

SULLIVAN: You have called us, and I'll quote you, "anti-moral perverts..."

FALWELL: No, the agenda -- Andrew, I believe the agenda...

SULLIVAN: ... "who want the right to" -- hold on a minute. Let me quote your own words at you -- "who want the right to violate any child of any age." You've called people like me...

FALWELL: Andrew...

SULLIVAN: ... good people around America child abusers for being gay. Now that is not a loving statement. You may put your arms around your son...

BLITZER: All right.

SULLIVAN: ... but you're not putting your arms around Matthew Shepard.

FALWELL: Andrew, I believe that...

BLITZER: Reverend Falwell, go ahead. FALWELL: ... there are those -- and that's what I was addressing -- who do have a militant agenda and who do want to legalize same-sex marriage, who do wish to get all the marriage -- financial benefits...

BIRCH: That would be...

SULLIVAN: That would be us.

BIRCH: That would be us.

FALWELL: ... of a heterosexual union, all of which -- yes, all of which...

BIRCH: Wolf, if I can...

FALWELL: ... I think is wrong, and I believe most Americans do.

BLITZER: All right. Elizabeth.

BIRCH: Can I just make this point that...

BLITZER: Yes.

BIRCH: ... I really believe in my heart and soul the same thing about Reverend Falwell, that if he could truly learn at the most intimate level what the scripture is about, what truly loving humanity is, if he could truly tune in to what God could be on this earth, he could free himself of the kind of misunderstanding that has captured his soul, the kind of hatred and animus that he would unwittingly or absolutely consciously...

BLITZER: All right. All right. We have to take another break. Reverend Mohler, we're going to come -- start off the next segment with you because I want your comments on this whole debate, homosexuality a disease, a sin, a normal lifestyle. Let's continue right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNE HECHE, ACTRESS: Mr. Trent Lott, Mr. Newt Gingrich, Mr. Jerry Falwell, how many Christs must bear the crosses until we learn that we are all children of God? You have witnessed a demonstration of what your ignorant teachings about gays and lesbians breed. You preach in support groups that encourage me to change who I am, to become more like you. I do not want to be like you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Reverend Falwell, very strong words from Anne Heche. I know you have to leave in a few minutes, but I wanted to get your reaction to what Anne Heche said.

FALWELL: Well, listening to Anne Heche and to Barney Frank who was censured by the Congress for giving special benefits to his male lovers, I just frankly consider the source, and I want to say -- I know it's going to break Anne's and Andrew's heart -- I have to leave the program here in a moment to do my own show on America's Voice Network at 10:00 on GE1 Transponder 19 (ph), if you allow me the promo -- cut that out if you -- but I just want to say to Anne and Andrew, no matter -- I mean, to Andrew...

BLITZER: To Elizabeth.

FALWELL: Yes. Elizabeth -- that I really do -- believe it or not, I love everyone equally. My children -- they all are heterosexual and so forth, but the issue is not my choices. The issue is what the Bible teaches for me as a Christian, and I believe the Bible is very clear. You mentioned the scriptures a moment ago and, Elizabeth, Romans Chapter 1, very clear. I hope you'll go home tonight and read it because it simply says that men with men working that which is unseemly, women burning in their lust one toward another, and God says it is unseemly, it is abominable, and I can't change that. That doesn't mean I don't love the person who does it.

BIRCH: Well, Reverend Falwell, I'd like to encourage you tonight to read Corinthians 13 so you can no longer be...

FALWELL: I read it this morning.

BIRCH: ... a clanging bell, and I want to also say that...

FALWELL: I think you can love sinners while you hate sin.

BIRCH: ... I resent you insulting such a fine congressman as Barney Frank.

FALWELL: Well, you and...

BIRCH: It's shameful.

FALWELL: ... I have a great difference. If he were a congressman in Virginia, we'd send him home to do something more...

SULLIVAN: If it's such a central part of Christian ministry, why did Jesus say nothing about it? Why did He go around talking about the importance of welcoming and loving the stranger and the alien and the persecuted and the marginalized but never said a word about hate -- about why people...

(CROSSTALK)

MOHLER: ... very clear about...

FALWELL: Andrew -- Jesus wrote the entire Bible, Andrew...

BIRCH: And Jesus didn't say one word...

FALWELL: ... Genesis through Revelation divinely inspired...

BIRCH: ... not one word about homosexuality...

BLITZER: One second. Let Reverend Falwell...

FALWELL: He, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and God the Son, inspired all 773,000 words of the English Bible. Read Romans 1.

SULLIVAN: But don't you think that...

FALWELL: He said it's unseemly, it's abominable, and how can you and I change that? Well, the fact is we have to conform to His Word, and may God help you to do that.

BIRCH: I actually think...

SULLIVAN: But there are plenty of things in the Bible, Reverend Falwell, for example, slavery, that we have come to realize are not right or -- that women, for example, should have a subordinate position in our society that we've...

BIRCH: Or that Solomon had a thousand wives.

SULLIVAN: There are things that we don't necessarily...

FALWELL: The Bible says nothing that is not...

SULLIVAN: ... but what I'm saying is that if you read, Reverend Falwell, as you know, because you haven't disputed this, the gospels, the early Christians who wrote that -- the gospel of John, Matthew, Mark, and Luke -- none of them thought that Jesus said anything hostile about gay people or said anything that should be construed as saying that our love for one another, our relationships with one another, which is...

FALWELL: A little knowledge is...

(CROSSTALK)

SULLIVAN: ... that's wrong.

FALWELL: A little knowledge of the Bible is dangerous. There are 66 books in the Bible, not just four gospels, and you must take the whole counsel of God in order to get God's mind on any subject.

BIRCH: Reverend Falwell, I would encourage you to do far more rigorous scholarship. There are a lot of theologians that would disagree with you, and if you truly reach back into the source of many, many of these books, you will find that the word "homosexual" cannot even be found except for in Leviticus, and I just encourage you to go beyond your own Christian Bible school to do more...

FALWELL: I'm sorry. It's in the book of...

BIRCH: ... much more rigorous scholarship because you...

FALWELL: It's also in the book of...
 

BIRCH: ... deserve it to -- you deserve it to inform yourself better, but also if you claim to lead your flock, you've got to have it grounded in...

FALWELL: If you ever want to change, I'll introduce you to...

BIRCH: ... a much more rigorous intellectual journey.

FALWELL: I'll introduce you to some gays and lesbians who have been transformed who will tell you lovingly that you can...

SULLIVAN: Reverend Falwell, if...

BIRCH: Reverend Falwell, we can introduce you to many that have been damaged by your so-called conversion therapy which is snake oil for the soul. You have hurt so many people, and I want to tell...

FALWELL: It's called the Blood of Jesus Christ.

BIRCH: ... you it is misleading, and it is damaging.

SULLIVAN: It is not the love of Jesus Christ, Reverend Falwell. Many of us love Jesus Christ, and I believe Christians...

FALWELL: I said the Blood of Jesus Christ is...

SULLIVAN: I count myself among them, and I think that Jesus Christ loves me. I believe He loves me...

FALWELL: No doubt about that, Andrew.

SULLIVAN: ... and made me gay, and...

FALWELL: He does love you.

SULLIVAN: He loves me as a gay person. He doesn't say, "Oh, I love you despite this part of yourself." He...

FALWELL: He loves you absolutely as a gay person...

SULLIVAN: ... loves you unconditionally.

FALWELL: ... but He does not...

BLITZER: All right. Reverend Falwell, I know you have to go because you have to prepare for your own program. It was kind of you to spend some time with us tonight...

FALWELL: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: ... on LARRY KING LIVE. Reverend Mohler, you have the remaining segments -- the remaining time to make your position very, very clear. We're going to come to you as soon as we come back. We want to thank Jerry Falwell once again for joining us. Stay with us on LARRY KING LIVE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: New Castle, California, please go ahead with your question.

CALLER: Hi. Well, I actually really wanted to talk to Jerry Falwell, but that's OK. I would like to ask just one thing. What can we do to let people know in this country that basically, with all the violence that goes on constantly around us, whether it's our schools or whatever, what can we do to have the religious coalition take and -- speak up and quit making such negative remarks over the air of our networks and causing these people that are just on the borderline, whether it's in regards to an abortion clinic, whatever, to go off the deep end and cause the destruction and take the human life?

This was absolutely a tragedy with this young man, to see somebody that hadn't harmed anybody in his lifetime to be put up and put through the torture that he was put through, it's absolutely inexcusable, and we're supposed to be Americans that have absolutely some human value to our lives, and this is like -- an animal wouldn't even do this to anyone.

BLITZER: Reverend Mohler, please go ahead with your comment.

MOHLER: Well, Matthew Shepard was made in the image of God, and no one had the right to take his life, much less do such a senseless murder. America is outraged about this and properly so, but this man -- these men who committed this act must be held accountable, and God's law calls that they be held accountable, the very same law that says homosexuality is a sin.

You know, we've come to a very strange point if Elizabeth Birch's teaching Jerry Falwell Biblical interpretation.

BIRCH: I'm proud to do it.

MOHLER: Actually, she is dead wrong. I know the Greek words. In First Corinthians...

BIRCH: I am very, very proud to do it.

MOHLER: ... Chapter 15...

BIRCH: I'm very proud...

MOHLER: ... Paul even uses such specific words as to indicate both the active and the passive partner in a homosexual relationship.

BIRCH: You know, Reverend Mohler...

MOHLER: It is just absolutely wrong to say that's not in the Bible. It is absolutely. First Corinthians Chapter 5. If you're going to talk about it, you ought to at least know something about it.

BIRCH: Reverend Mohler, I think you need to do your scholarship also, just like Reverend Falwell.

And just to respond to this woman's comment, hate-crimes laws are not going to be a panacea and, in fact, we shouldn't sort of use them to avoid the grief and the sorrow of -- the discussion of them to not actually deal with the real pain of the passing of Matthew Shepard. Matthew Shepard is not the only victim in this country, and there needs to be better education in the schools, and there needs to be not sort of the moral dispensation provided by people like Reverend Falwell, like James Dobson, like Gary Bauer for people that are on the edge, and they have rage and frustration, and someone comes across their path that they have been told is defective, is less than human, and is disposable...

SULLIVAN: Wouldn't it be wonderful to echo that lady and caller, if all the major leaders of religions in America came together and said, "Whatever our views about," for example, "homosexual behavior, all of us stand up for the dignity and integrity of homosexual persons. We stand up for their right to live in peace and not to be subjected to violence." Would you join us in doing that, Reverend Mohler?

MOHLER: By all means, I would join a statement that homosexuals must not be the victims of violence because there is no justification for any such violence against homosexuals or any other person.

SULLIVAN: I think it would be wonderful if we all -- we got a coalition of religious people from the far conservative to far liberal to make such a simple statement. It would help counteract some of the hostile -- some of the misinterpretations that people make from some of the statements that are made by religious leaders, and I think it would be a won -- we should think about doing that.

MOHLER: Well, Andrew and I obviously disagree over the issue of homosexuality. I also happen to think he is one of the nation's most gifted writers. When he was editor of "The New Republic," I tried not to miss an issue, but we have...

SULLIVAN: Thank you.

MOHLER: ... a radical disagreement on this issue, and a few moments ago, he said that love is never wrong. I do not believe he really believes that because certainly there are some things that are called love that are simply wrong, and there are some relationships that are wrong and, you know, without going into graphic detail, clearly, there are some loves that go under that name -- some attractions, some passions, some sexual relationships -- that are wrong, and the Bible so clearly says that homosexuality is wrong.

Let me just say this. I firmly believe that the best friends homosexuals in this country have are conservative Christians who love homosexuals enough to tell them the truth about what the Bible says and point them to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ which offers all sinners, all of us, a means of becoming what we otherwise could not be, righteous before God, because we are forgiven of our sins, and we turn and live differently.

SULLIVAN: But I hope you understand, Reverend Mohler, that my conscience tells me that what I should do in my life, according to what I think God wants me to do, is be honest about who I am and to lead a conversation which helps people to understand that gay people are not evil and immoral, that we can have real relationships, and that that's something that I do from a Christian conviction, and many, many thousands of others do it from a Christian conviction as well.

BLITZER: All right. We have to take another break. Some concluding thoughts when we come back. Stay with us on LARRY KING LIVE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Montana, Switzerland, go ahead with your question please.

CALLER: Yes. My question actually was nearly answered by the lady -- I mean, when you answered the lady before, but, actually, I don't fully agree with the Reverend when he says that gay choose to be gay. Gay -- I mean, gay is not a pervert person. I'm not gay my -- I'm not a lesbian myself, but I'm a tolerant person, and I must say -- I'm calling from Switzerland, I am a high school teacher, and I don't only teach the subject to my student.

I teach them tolerance because here in Switzerland, the Catholic are in minority. So we have to respect everybody. We have Jew, we have -- we have Jews, we have Protestant, we have all kind of religions, and we respect everybody. Now one thing I can't understand, Reverend, is why -- when it is a matter of gay or lesbian, why do you always have to refer to the Bible?

BLITZER: Go ahead, Reverend Mohler.

MOHLER: Well, because I'm not a psychologist and I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not a sociologist. I'm not a politician. I'm a theologian and a minister of the Word, and my conscience is bound to the Word of God, and God's Word is so clear on this subject. Homosexuality is a sin and a sin which is an abomination before God.  And let me say also that the issue of tolerance is something we really ought to discuss, and we ought to make clear what we mean by tolerance. Certainly, tolerance must be exercised if that means preventing violence against homosexuals and other persons, but I reject the notion of tolerance that calls for an endorsement of homosexuality as a valid alternative lifestyle.

SULLIVAN: But, Reverend Mohler, there you go again. The Bible does not say that homosexuality is a sin. It doesn't say being gay is a sin. It says in a few places, which is disputed, that a particular sexual act is a sin because it isn't part of a procreative act. So when you say something like homosexuality is a sin, as if all of us who are gay are sinful because of that, you are sending the wrong message. You've got to say homosexuality is not a sin, but in your view -- and it's a small view -- certain passages say that some things that homosexuals do is wrong. You've got to make that distinction.

MOHLER: Well, my view has been held by most Christians throughout the centuries, and the Bible addresses homosexuality only in terms of behavior...

SULLIVAN: Yes. Well, that's why the Bible...

MOHLER: ... and those who commit such acts are homosexuals.

SULLIVAN: But we now know, don't we, that homosexuality is not something you just do? It's something you are, and when you use the word...

MOHLER: Well, I don't know that. I reject that notion, and that...

SULLIVAN: So you think we're lying.

MOHLER: ... is a very modern -- no, I can't read your heart, Andrew. I would not presume to do that. I would simply say this. The claim that this is a constitutive identity, that it is a genetic legacy, that it is a being issue rather than a doing issue, that is a very new notion and has been put forth quite straightforwardly by those who want to legitimize homosexuality.

SULLIVAN: No. It's been put forth by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church...

MOHLER: Well, the Catholic -- you've misconstrued the Catholic Church, by the way. I am not a Roman Catholic, although I'm familiar with Roman Catholic theology.

SULLIVAN: I don't misconstrue the word "innate."

BIRCH: Can I...

MOHLER: It says...

SULLIVAN: Believe me, I've studied...

MOHLER: It says -- even that document said "maybe" not "is." "Maybe" not "is." It left it open to debate. I'm not a Catholic. I'm not going to defend Catholic teaching. I will simply say that for those...

BIRCH: May I ask a question?

MOHLER: ... of us who seek to be so strictly Biblical that that is our only authority -- and that is the only authority I have -- the issue is very clear. Homosexual behavior is sin.

BLITZER: All right. Elizabeth, we only have a few seconds left. Go ahead.

BIRCH: OK. Reverend Mohler, I'm just curious about why there is such a concerted sort of obsessive focus on if it is a so-called sin, one that didn't even make it into the top 10 and about which Jesus did not say one word.

BLITZER: All right. We're going to have to leave it there, unfortunately. Reverend Mohler, thanks for joining us. Elizabeth, Andrew, Reverend Jerry Falwell, our two guests earlier. That's all the time we have for this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Larry will return next week, and tomorrow night on LARRY KING WEEKEND, tune in for a replay of the recent debate between conservative commentator William Bennett and former New York Governor Mario Cuomo. and Sunday, stay tuned for LATE EDITION. My guests will include Attorney General Janet Reno and Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Have a good weekend.

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